Comments on Girl's Gone Child: Let's Hear it For the Boys

I don't understand how on earth highlighting a...

2009-10-03T06:50:19.721-07:00

I don't understand how on earth highlighting an issue everyone admits exists and is legitimate is somehow diminishing another issue that everyone agrees exists. It's ludicrous to suggest that having a legitimate concern about how boys are portrayed in media/advertising somehow isn't worth because, well, women still aren't there yet. You're right! We're not. And it stinks, and I will personally fight such stereotypes 'til I'm blue in the face. But that certainly doesn't mean other ridiculous and damaging stereotypes don't also deserve a fight. That seems to me to be such a lazy approach to equality - choosing the biggest battle isn't equivalent to choosing every battle that damages the message of gender equality which, I'm sure we can all agree, can only help both women AND men and is the entire point of being a feminist.

I feel so lucky to have read this, it's a perspect...

2009-03-07T12:48:00.000-08:00

I feel so lucky to have read this, it's a perspective I wouldn't have gotten elsewhere, and it's so compelling from a mother's point of view.

your son is adorable and this momversation was rea...

2009-03-06T18:39:00.000-08:00

your son is adorable and this momversation was really interesting to watch

oops! that's supposed to say: try to make sure my ...

2009-03-06T13:37:00.000-08:00

oops! that's supposed to say: try to make sure my know KNOW that they don't suck in any way, shape or form!

i finally got around to viewing this video and i j...

2009-03-06T13:36:00.000-08:00

i finally got around to viewing this video and i just wanted to say, "thank you". i'm a mother of 2 young boys and while i had never really thought of these issues the way you laid out in this video, it is really, very true! i think because my boys are still very young, i haven't had to deal with them being able to read things like that or ask questions about it yet, so it wasn't in the forefront of my mind. thank you for sharing this so that i can now be more aware of the things around me and that i can, in turn, try to make sure my boys that they don't suck in any way, shape, or form!

Anger and insults will do little to get your point...

2009-03-05T17:22:00.000-08:00

Anger and insults will do little to get your point across my dear stranger.

Ok, I get that the "throw rocks at boys" shirt is ...

2009-03-05T17:11:00.000-08:00

Ok, I get that the "throw rocks at boys" shirt is ridiculous. But do you honestly mean to compare the issues young girls face with maybe a few boys getting their feelings hurt? Last time I checked, a man never had to worry about where he parks at night, whom he goes out with, where he set his drink, if he is only making 75% as his equally qualified co-worker, all because of his gender. Young boys indeed face many issues, but a lot of those are perpetuated by the rigidity of a patriarchal society. Men experience emotional difficulty in their lifetime due to the fact that there are deemed weak if the exhibit "feminine" traits such as sensitivity, sentimentality, etc. I think the crisis you seem to be so concerned about is the fact that boys no longer can expect an uneven playing field, and that will take some adjustment. Yes, girls tend to do better in school and often advance into higher education. As I posted in your "Masculinist" post, this is because young girls are socialized to be quiet and do as they are told. So this system backfires on men and I am supposed to feel sorry that they can't keep up? Ridiculous.

I love men, and always will. I recognize that young boys face unique challenges and agree with some of the innate hypocrisy in young women who demand equal pay yet expect men to foot the bill at dinner. But I refuse to accept this delusional "emergency" you are perpetuating when there is a more than likely chance that my daughter (and all other women) will be the victim of a sexual assault in her lifetime.
You feel superior because you think you belong in the "boys club", we GET IT.

read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Ca...

2009-03-05T10:31:00.000-08:00

read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Cain-Protecting-Emotional-Life/dp/0345434854/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236277843&sr=1-1

totally addresses this issue - Raising Cain

humanists rule.

haters of any and all kin...

2009-03-04T15:36:00.000-08:00

humanists rule.

haters of any and all kind drool.

nuff said.

Okay, I will give you that parents, as with most o...

2009-03-04T11:49:00.000-08:00

Okay, I will give you that parents, as with most of the public, have a tendency to focus more on the derogatory issues which affect their daughters than those that affect their sons. I already admitted that this particular topic hadn't even entered my realm of awareness until the Momversation episode entered my life lol, so if I'm not a posterchild of proof of that statement, I don't know what is.

Just because I don't personally agree with everything there doesn't mean I can't admit that you have a damned good point from that standpoint.

And also, I'm so with you on the PC world STINKING. It's unbelievable.

Agreed, yay for discussion. Also, I found this on...

2009-03-04T10:35:00.000-08:00

Agreed, yay for discussion. Also, I found this on another blog:

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/03/kidnapping-and-bondage-in-kids.html

Maybe T-shirts/the clothing industry is a bigger deal than I give it credit for! Shameful.

Totally hear you on the PC thing. Drives me nuts, ...

2009-03-04T10:25:00.000-08:00

Totally hear you on the PC thing. Drives me nuts, too. I just KNOW a stink would have been made had the huge canvas in the window said "Girls are stupid. Throw Rocks at them" and my point of the video was to address that there is indeed a double standard. And I think parents have a tendency to look away when it comes to the media marginalizing their sons, dwelling instead on the sexist/derogatory issues regarding their daughters. I feel like someone's gotta stick up for the the boys, yo.

Also, as per the videos being light on details. We have 45 minutes of footage at the get and it gets edited down to 5 minutes. For this particular subject producers chose to dwell on the Boys Suck shirts when that was only a small part of the discussion.

I do as always appreciate the discussion and everyone's intelligent insight and respectful debate. You ladies rock. :)

I watched this Momversation the other night, and I...

2009-03-04T09:21:00.000-08:00

I watched this Momversation the other night, and I have to admit that it was a topic I'd never even considered before.

Although I believe in equality, in equal ability and service for all, I have a hard time getting behind ideas like this one because I think it promotes over-sensitivity, which leads to more PC crap. You heard me: PC CRAP. I hate the PC world.

So my natural tendency is to think that topics like this are over-reactions. The shirt is obviously not intended to be taken literally, nor would anyone say it should be. It's meant to take advantage of a long-standing societal joke that men are blubbering fools, just like there are long-standing jokes about women. My husband has a shirt that shows a ball and chain and says "We're all married to the same woman." Okay, some people might think it's derogatory, but I think that's an over-reaction. It's a joke, it's meant to be funny, it's meant to take advantage of a societal norm, which includes one sex making jokes about the other. It doesn't mean anyone actually thinks all women are the same or that all wives are a ball and chain.

I don't think boys suck or that rocks should be thrown at them. And I do agree that disrespecting any person - the same sex or otherwise - is a despicable display of a person's weakness. Please don't think that I think EVERY occurrence or joke or stereotype in the world is fair, but in this case, I do think that those particular items are meant as jokes. And I honestly feel that the INTENT is far more important, in this case, than the interpretation.

Anyway, moving on, I'm looking forward to how the Prop 8 court case turns out and what you have to say about it =) I didn't realize until I heard an NPR broadcast yesterday that everything kicked off tomorrow.

I think my major problem with the discussion in th...

2009-03-04T08:33:00.000-08:00

I think my major problem with the discussion in this webversation is it's limitation in deeply exploring what's going on here. Yeah, the T-shirts are really offensive, but let's look a little more to the root of the issue. I am not a mother, so I understand that there is a level to your anger that I don't get yet, but I think there are some deep flaws in the concern expressed here.

Mostly, I think it is incredibly important to draw a difference between media's representation of disrespect for men/boys, individual women disrespecting men and boys, and both of these from feminism. The argument here seems to be convoluted a little between anger at the media and anger at women. The images that you describe are not acts of disrespect specifically towards your children or any children they are part of a system of marketing that capitalizes on these sentiments. I think that Dana's discussion of inequality confuses this here. Besides showing very little sympathy or understanding of what it might be to be from a marginalized community here, you say that "some groups seek equality by putting others down." Who are you talking about here in this instance? What groups are trying to reach equality by making t-shirts that say boys suck? There aren't any, you are confusing two issues, conflating women's rights activism with these t-shirts, and, yes, I do have a problem with this.

More importantly, the larger "men getting the shaft" is SO much bigger than these shirts, and what is discussed here. There is no addressal here of how the media and society demonizes and stereotypes certain types of men, specifically men of color, far more than a silly t-shirt. This may not be the point of the post-but it is incredibly important to the topic.

K, I think that a lot of people probably feel the ...

2009-03-04T05:57:00.000-08:00

K, I think that a lot of people probably feel the way you do. Nobody likes false assumptions to be made about them. On the other hand, it makes me wonder where those false assumptions come from, and it seems likely that they originate with the stereotypes about feminists that have been concocted as a way of undermining efforts for gender equality. If everyone is scared away from the feminist label because of those stereotypes, then that plan worked. And that's what I think is kind of sad, as I mentioned in my first comment. How can feminism be defined for what it is (i.e., efforts for gender equality, not man-hate) when people who espouse feminist beliefs don't identify as feminist?

I also think that the label should be feminist rather than humanist because the term feminist shows homage for feminists who have come before us and, because of the history of the feminist movement, already has philosophy, literature, leadership, etc. Also, and perhaps this is where GCC and I disagree, the term recognizes that, on the whole, women are oppressed more than men. Does that mean that men are not harmed by gender roles and patriarchy? No. Does that mean that messages like "Boys suck" are not sexist? No. Does that mean that those messages are feminist? No. What it does mean is that women suffer more that men based on our current state of gender affairs. Women are paid less for equal work (although hopefully that will change with the Lilly Ledbetter Act!), underrepresented in politics, victims/survivors of rape, etc. To me, it is important to acknowledge the systemic oppression of women by using a term like feminist. The problem is that the term has been blackmarked as ONLY being about the oppression of women, as a way of undermining its efforts (which actually aim to benefit all of society, both men and women). The ways that feminism has helped men (e.g., pushing for parental leave instead of just maternal leave, decrying sexist messages aimed at men as well as women, etc.) have been ignored, or at best downplayed, so as to paint feminism as a women v. men movement. It is very easy to criticize a movement that is about women v. men because that kind of mentality is really problematic in many ways. But that is not feminism.

What a great post. I especially liked your brothe...

2009-03-03T22:41:00.000-08:00

What a great post. I especially liked your brother's comment. I grew up in a female dominated household and now live in a male dominated household with 3 sons. All I can say is that finding your place in the world is difficult no matter what your sex is.
Can't we all just get along?

GGC, I always enjoy reading your posts and your re...

2009-03-03T21:45:00.000-08:00

GGC, I always enjoy reading your posts and your readers' comments, even though we often don't agree. On this topic, I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Laura, I consider myself to be very "pro-woman" and equally as "pro-man." But I, too, don't adopt the "feminist" label. The label implies that I agree with many ideas and positions with which I simply don't. I know that's not how it SHOULD be, and I know that's not what the feminist movement intends. On several occasions, people have explained to me that calling myself a "feminist" does not imply that I believe anything in particular about any given topic. But, from experience, I just haven't seen that in action. To call myself a feminist would be to open the door for several assumptions to be made, that I believe or do not believe in X, Y, or Z, and I'm just not comfortable with those assumptions. Is it the way it should be? No. But it's the way it is, so I'll stick to calling myself a humanist, too.

I'm a recent convert to your blog, through Momvers...

2009-03-03T20:18:00.000-08:00

I'm a recent convert to your blog, through Momversation. I wanted to comment on this particular installment because it is the first one to really, deeply affect me. I'm a new mother to a little boy, just five months old (born right before Fable, I think!). This whole issue had simply never occurred to me until I watched the video. How is that possible? I don't even know, but it's true and now I'm preemptively horrified and offended for my sweet, perfect little boy. I am grateful for having some foreknowledge about this so I can be prepared to deal with this if ( or :( when) it happens. Thanks and keep up the excellent work.

Honestly its as simple as feeling "humanist" is mo...

2009-03-03T20:11:00.000-08:00

Honestly its as simple as feeling "humanist" is more equal opportunity. Because although I agree that women have a long way to go, I also think our boys are being held back and held down in ways that are being overlooked, ignored and denied.

I think that resisting the feminist label as a res...

2009-03-03T19:46:00.000-08:00

I think that resisting the feminist label as a response to seeing degrading messages about boys (especially when you espouse feminist ideals, such as equality and respect for all) implies that these messages are feminist.

Of course, people can label themselves (or not) however they feel comfortable. As a movement though, the label serves a function of uniting people who share beliefs about equality and the importance of critically examining patriarchial norms and gender roles.

I don't see this post as "anti woman," although I could see how someone could. However, that perspective falls into a trap of an us v. them mentality, which I think is really harmful (and not feminist!).

I DO see this post as containing feminist messages (e.g., that people should not be degraded based on that gender, that gendered messages hurt society, etc.), yet actively resisting the feminist label. As I said before, I think that the label is definitely voluntary. But, I also question why people are so resistant to the label when they seem to endorse feminist beliefs, and I am concerned by what that resistance could mean for achieving feminist goals.

I love this post. I am only twenty and I don't hav...

2009-03-03T19:17:00.000-08:00

I love this post. I am only twenty and I don't have any children (yet!) but I think you make such a wonderful point in saying that we should try and treat each other as equals. Why is it so hard to imagine ourselves in others' shoes?

As for that tshirt, I remember when I was in high school they had a whole franchise--pencil cases, shirts, PJs, etc. It is so sad that things like that sell. I can understand letting out a "guys suck!" to your best friend with a mouth full of chocolate after a bad breakup, but to really, truly, feel that way and support that idea all of the time is sort of ridiculous.

I love reading your blog. :)

Valerie, it actually does go both ways. My girls ...

2009-03-03T19:13:00.000-08:00

Valerie, it actually does go both ways. My girls have to see Hooters and mudflap girls on t-shirts (and mudflaps). Even heard of people taking their boys to Hooters for their birthdays. Really? Seriously? This isn't learning respect for women. Yes, the "boys suck" t-shirts are horrible. I believe in empowering both sexes. I do know that I encourage both my sons and daughters to become president. I also know that my daughters see that the position has been filled only by men.

I let my son wear a necklace to a class recently. ...

2009-03-03T18:51:00.000-08:00

I let my son wear a necklace to a class recently. He saw me wearing one so he wanted one. I was thankful all the other women commented on how cool it was. Today he wanted a hair clip, his babysitter giggled, I promptly said sure.

He plays with trucks, cars, his penis and has a baby stuffed monkey he sleeps with.

I want to make him into a wonderful man and am trying to allow him to explore whatever he wants without other people saying "that's not what boys do."

When he tells me I'm pretty, I think he's perfect.

Lindsay
www.expressingmotherhood.com

Who is labeling "Boys Suck" shirts as feminist? Wh...

2009-03-03T18:46:00.000-08:00

Who is labeling "Boys Suck" shirts as feminist? Who is associating girl power with man hate?

My point isn't that feminism is anti-male but that men are also victims of unfair treatment and we should be sensitive to THEIR feelings as well.

I find it fascinating that this post is to so many women "anti woman"... To me that says more about the state of feminism than anything. And that makes ME really sad.

A boy could NEVER get away with wearing a shirt th...

2009-03-03T18:42:00.000-08:00

A boy could NEVER get away with wearing a shirt that says "Girls Suck." It should go both ways.