Epiblogues: Amen

I seem to have angered a lot of people with my last post and honestly? That was what I wanted. I wanted to isolate those of you who voted for Prop 8. I wanted you to feel like complete and utter shit because it was your vote that took away the rights of the people I love, including my best friend.

But after some thought, I realize now that it was wrong of me.

After all, if I believe in fighting intolerance, I can only do so by loving the opposition. That has always been the only way to win a debate amicably and while I will not apologize for what I wrote in my last post, I will acknowledge that I was unkind to many of you and for that I'm sorry. I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

I take this issue very seriously and I'm disappointed and incredibly sad that a number of my loyal blog readership, good people, would take something so precious away from my very best peeps.

So as I was coming from a place of anger, please know that I was also coming from a place of passion and protectiveness. It is my duty as a friend to fight the bullies. Proposition 8 is exactly that.

I'd like to think that each and every one of you would be just as pissed if equal rights were taken away from your best friends. Your family. And that you might even, without thinking twice about the ramifications, hurt some feelings trying to protect them.

GGC

66 comments:

Heather | 6:05 PM

I think the people need to be angered. I also think they need to pull their heads out of their assess and see what the hell they are doing. I'm a very easy going person and Prop 8 angers me to no end, and I don't even live in California. I will be protesting in Boston on Saturday and hopefully equality will eventually come for everyone.

Holzerfam | 6:20 PM

Good for you! I wasn't at all offended by your last post, in fact it fired me up. It made me go right to my facebook and post a message about getting people out to the nationwide protest here in Austin.
This issue hits close to home for me, even in Texas. A life-long friend (who introduced me to my husband) and her wife were recently married in California. They made a special trip out there to make that VERY meaningful commitment (even tho such unions are not recognized here) and my heart BROKE when we learned the results of Prop. 8...as we all thought there was NO WAY that California would pass such an intolerant proposition.
In another way altogether...I come from an ultra-conservative political family...with a grandparent in the Texas Legislature who proposed an equally horrid proposition here in Texas. The sad thing is, it passed here. Though I love the man, I cannot justify or understand or pretend to "tolerate" (a word I do not care for) his political moves any longer and I plan to make that known while home for the holidays.
I hope that something is done (if anything can be done), so that California can lead the way for other states (yes, even Texas).
Equality is for one and ALL...and that includes LGBTQ and yes, even nutcases who voted for prop 8 and others like it.
Nov. 4th was a great day for our nation, but a sad night for our civil rights.
And for those who use that same old "sanctity of marriage" cry...MY Texas marriage feels more threatened by polar bears than it does by gay or lesbian couples. So there.

abdpbt | 6:50 PM

Good for you for saying what you think. And for the record, I also think people who voted yes should suck it. I'm just as pissed off as you, and if it forces them to think about it, then it's worth it.

foodiemama | 6:53 PM

you said how you feel... don't take that back! stand by it and the yessers can suck it, ha!

Joceline | 6:59 PM

I appreciate your apology. Even though I DO NOT support Prop 8, I don't think that MOST people who do support it come from a place of hate or bigotry. They support it because, for whatever reason, they think that gay marriage is wrong. They are not trying to single anyone out, hurt anyone, etc. I don't agree with them, but to jump to the conclusion that they come from a place of hate is just wrong in most cases. I understand that you are/were upset about this situation, as I am, but I don't think that it warrants the hatred from the other side.

Thanks again for the apology.

Amelia Sprout | 7:00 PM

It is good to move past the anger, but you did inspire me to write my own post about my very favorite Californian, my very own gay uncle. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you see it) he didn't live to see all the hate.

People only see one side of things, and don't think about who they hurt.

Anonymous | 7:02 PM

The people who voted Yes seem to think this is an issue that reasonable people can disagree about. It's not. It's a hateful, discriminatory proposition that openly deprives a select group of people from a whole host of rights. Being strongly opposed to it is not intolerant, unfriendly, or hypocritical. It's demonstrating a higher level of moral development, one we should all aspire to. Can we evolve already??

I have to say I find the references to church funny when it comes to gay marriage. What would Jesus do if he saw two loving, committed people wanting to have their marriage recognized by the state? Can you see him blocking the hospital room door, saying, "Sorry, can't let you visit with your loved one, homo. Them's the rules."

Also, where did we get the idea we should be taking advice about marriage from the Mormons or the Catholics? The Mormons say men can marry all the women they want (the modern church may naysay it, but it remains in their guiding book), while the Catholic clergy isn't allowed to date, much less marry. Wouldn't it be great it they had used all the tens of millions of dollars they spent stirring up hate on something cool instead? Imagine how much mercy for the poor they could mustered with that $80 million.

Elizabeth | 7:24 PM

My best friend is also gay and is also married to a woman, and as her best friend I have to add my "Woo HOO!" to this. ALL AMERICANS DESERVE ALL THE SAME RIGHTS OR IT'S NOT AMERICA ANY MORE.

Anonymous | 7:28 PM

As foreigner who has lived in the US for the past 15 years, America's stance on gay marriage baffles me. Does your Declaration of Independence not state "that all men are created equal" and that Americans have "certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"? How can it be that one person's opinion/vote can take away another person's right to happiness, and more importantly, his or her right to equality? Does this not go against the very principles this country was founded on?
The country I am from legalized gay marriage many years ago - and I am happy to say that no children have been harmed in the process, society did not collapse and homosexuality did not "spread".
While I do not have a personal investment in the legalization of gay marriage, I will say that I am mighty happy to live in a state that is progressive enough to enact the separation of church and state and enforce the belief that every man and women, no matter of their race, sexual orientation or race, has the same inalienable rights. Thanks, Connecticut, and I hope that California (and Florida) will follow your lead!

April | 7:33 PM

I'm in FL and was so very disappointed that prop 2 passed (changing our constitution to specify marriage as between a man and a woman). how ridiculous. really. UHG.

Rob | 7:41 PM

They support it because, for whatever reason, they think that gay marriage is wrong. They are not trying to single anyone out, hurt anyone, etc. I don't agree with them, but to jump to the conclusion that they come from a place of hate is just wrong in most cases.

Now see, I'm not sure what conclusion you COULD draw from their position. I'm sorry, but sometimes wrong is wrong, and the argument doesn't deserve civility, but outrage.

"For whatever reason" doesn't work with racism or sexism or genocide or violence against women or oppression against the poor. So why would you think it has a place here?

missbeegail | 8:34 PM

I'm right there with you! I'll be in downtown Chicago on Saturday, protesting with the rest of the country. No constitution (state or federal) should specify who can be in love or who can get married. Either we all can get married or none of us can. None of this separate but equal civil unions sh*t.

Ban discrimination, not love!

Kara | 8:54 PM

A usual lurker here delurking to put my two cents in. I am a Republican and person raised in a Christian home and I was and still am appalled that Prop 8 passed. To be honest I hadn't even thought twice about it until reading blogs like yours. When I heard someone talk about gay marriage the immediate thought in my head was that no it is wrong. I never saw it from someone else's view. But after reading your blog I began to see it in a different light. And I was devastated when I learned that it had passed, living in VA I obviously could not vote for it. I cant imagine being told that I could not marry the person I love. I have two little boys and I hope that by the time they are old enough to fall in love, with either gender, that they never have to worry about whether or not they will be granted basic human rights. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart Rebecca for making me realize my ignorance. I am sure I am not the only one you have touched with your blogs on this issue.

Anonymous | 8:55 PM

Rebecca Woolf, You are an amazing woman. My hats off to you. We need more people in this world who are not afraid to stand up for what they believe in. Thank you for writing these posts. I will be showing my father the second video to hopefully shed some light. Absolutly amazing...
Kate

Backpacking Dad | 9:20 PM

Pride.

There's a lot of it here, and some of it is fantastic.

I'm proud of you.

goodfather | 9:23 PM

Amen again!

nancy | 9:39 PM

I'm sorry you felt the need to reign in your comments. Your anger is absolutely warranted, and to every reader WHO DIDN'T READ CAREFULLY and heard "Get the eff off my lawn," I'd encourage you to ACTUALLY read that line again.

It's going to be rainy and cold in Cleveland, but this straight girl is going downtown with a sign.

Rob's original comment to the Amen piece is totally right on.

Someday, America will start living up to its potential. We're getting there, slowly.

bokker | 2:34 AM

This was a gracious move on your part, Rebecca, and I admire it.
But I don't think you need to justify your anger with the fact that people you love are affected by this hateful (literally, hate full) thing.

Your anger would be righteous and justified even if you didn't know a single one of "the gays", as a commenter on your last post charmingly called gay people.
My mum and both my best friends (male and female) are gay- and I'm delighted they can finally get hitched in the UK, should they wish. But if everyone I knew was straight? Damn- well- straight I'd still be angry about discrimination, as I'm sure you would be too.

The passing of this proposition seems to fly in the face of progress. It baffles me that steps to equality can be made, only to be snatched away again.

I don't live in the US so I know nothing of the relationship between state and federal law, but (she asks naively) is this something that your brilliant president-to-be can do something about?

Over here, we're counting on him to make good all the ills of the world, you know ;o)

Keira | 3:12 AM

I seriously cannot believe that all this is happening. Living in the UK with legalised gay marriage (albeit called a "civil union") this seems so, so wrong. I mean i vaguely remember some murmured objections here but when gay marriage was legalised it wasn't this huge fight at all. My heart lifts when i see the "Mr & Mr" and "Mrs & Mrs" cards in the wedding section. Well done for standing up for your loved ones and fighting for them. Being married is great and i really can't imagine denying anyone that pleasure- its just downright, playground bully-esque mean.

i think Archer and Fable will be very proud that not only did their parents stand up for the rights of others but that they did too. I'm just sad that you still have to fight for equality in 2008

Bonnie | 3:31 AM

How the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. still hold true today:

"The true stature of man is not how he stands in times of comfort and convenience, but how he stands in times of challenge and controversy."

and

“The greatest sin is not those who destroyed, but those who; sat idly by.”

It is OUR responsibility to stop the hate.

Anonymous | 3:38 AM

This made me think of you today:

" I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. I am in earnest - I will not equivocate - I will not excuse - I will not retreat a single inch - and I will be heard. "

-abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison

Kelly | 5:25 AM

Why is it that EVERYTHING you seem to write always makes me cry? I feel like you're taking the words straight up outta my mouth...I'm sure you hear that all the time, but still.

That video you posted was sublime. That made me cry, too. (The "ugly cry", and I'm at work, so it's not so appropriate.)

I feel that those in support of Prop 8 aren't in our shoes. They don't have family that's gay. They don't have a best friend that's gay. They don't constantly have to hear from those that they love how UNFAIR it is that our country's legal system is taking away their basic motherf'ing rights. How could you support something (or someone) that makes anyone feel less than?

Anyway, amen. I have a hard time even having a conversation with anyone who doesn't see things the way we do. If that's closeminded, so be it.

Erin, Nick and Merrick | 5:26 AM

Wow- without sounding super creepy- I really wish I knew you and was your friend! You are so open minded and honest!!
We had the ammendment 2 here, and it passes as well, makes me sad to live in FL.

Cat | 5:43 AM

Hi!
I'm spanish. Here homo marriage was legalized not so long ago, and even there were few protests (mainly catholics), it wasn't such a big deal.
Even that far away, I was so sad when I knew it that I even posted on my blog (http://iridiscentes.wordpress.com ,in spanish) about how frustrating it was that you had the guts to elect Obama and at the same time California was stepping back in something so important.

So as for me you have the right to be angry and do not need to justify yourself just because you offended some people. My best friend was beaten up in a park just because he was gay, my cousin is gay, and I really feel their fight is our society's fight to progress.

Well done girl!

rantsalamode | 6:46 AM

I'm with you all the way. Why should you hate to tolerate intolerance? Those people who were angered by your last post are indeed misguided, or worse yet, perhaps hateful. You had every right to call them that. You weren't being intolerant in a way that is objectionable. It is okay to call out people who hate people irrationally, because if they had not started the hate cycle, you would have no problem whatsoever with them....

Jenn | 7:06 AM

Just a response to kara above:

I also live in VA and while we didn't vote on legalizing (or not) gay marriage, a couple years ago, we had our own "hate vote", specifying the WORDING of our state laws to be changed to "man and woman" in the definition of marriage. Still wasn't going to make it legal, but people were up in arms over it...Over WORDS. All it did was promote intolerance and hatred. It didn't pass up in "liberal VA" where I live (thank goodness), but the rest of the state ("real VA" as the McCain campaign called it) passed it, and the hatred was passed in VA. I am not going to assume you voted in that election or even how you voted back then, but if it ever comes up again, I think I may know how you might vote this time. So thanks, Rebecca, for possibly changing a Virginian's vote.

Birchsprite | 7:06 AM

people are still people whatever the makeup of their family unit. I believe strongly that love is the most important thing and that it really doesn't matter who is the focus of that love, we should all be able to express that love in the same way.

Well done Rebecca... stand up for your beliefs and those you love.

Anonymous | 7:42 AM

I am a Canadian and completely outraged by Prop 8. Your friends should move to Canada! I never thought I would see same-sex marriage in my life time and I am proud to say that my country has finally woken up about this issue. I wish that I could be at that rally with you and your family.

emilie | 7:43 AM

It's YOUR blog hon.No apologies necessary, you were being honest.

As my mum would say "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."

Jump Mama Jump | 8:03 AM

I loved these last two posts. You are so honest and passionate and articulate.

I went to the No on 8 rally at Pershing Square with my two week old baby. This is about my right to marry, about the rights of my friends, and potentially the right of my son.

Pictures here (yeah, he stayed on the boob the whole time):
http://jumpmamajump.blogspot.com/2008/11/political-love.html

Megg | 8:10 AM

I agree with passionately stating your opinion no matter who is upset.

Chelsea Robbins | 8:12 AM

I'm proud to live in a country where I experience so many freedoms. We can't forget how awesome it is to be an American. Things won't always be like we want them, but we're not the only country who has opposed this right to same sex marriage.
It does seem like we're moving in better direcitons, so there is a bright side to all of this.
Way to speak your mind, don't get too discouraged though. Things will change for the better, or the worse, or they wont change at all. It's nothing we can control. If the majority of the population wants to keep things the way they are, we can't be bitter. Just move foreward and be greatful for what we do have, and hope things will change.

Amie | 8:27 AM

What a fantastic couple of posts. And no, you shouldn't be apologizing for them. At all.

We *can't* just sit around and hope things will change, and not be bitter when civil rights are set back. If that was the case, would African Americans and women be able to vote? Go to school? Not be seen as property?

These are things we take for granted now, but it was one helluva fight getting those rights in the first place.

You have to speak your piece, and you have stand up and say, "NO! This is NOT okay!" Sitting back and hoping for the best does nothing to move things forward.

Aunt Baaa | 9:08 AM

Who cares if you offended anyone that would support bigotry? I say, go ahead and offend them. They are offensive to me (and you too!). Their belief that they have a right to dictate the choices that anyone else can make if offensive. For example, I couldn't have an abortion. I just don't feel that I could do that. But I would NEVER, in a million years, be arrogant enough to believe that I should make that decision for anyone else.

The argument that allowing gay marriage somehow dilutes hetero marriage just doesn't hold water. Does the fact that other couples end up divorced dilute my marriage? No other marriage, gay or straight, has ANY effect AT ALL on my marriage.

This Prop is unconstitutional and immoral. These people should be ashamed of themselves. They are the same ilk that stood outside the schools in Arkansas and screamed at the young African American students. Shame on them all.

Tracey | 11:15 AM

What I just can't wrap my head around is why this matters to the ones who support 8? Why? I have WATCHED the videos online that the supporters have made. Some were tasteful, some were not. But basically, it came down to them being afraid that their kids would be taught something in school that they don't agree with...


Ummm. And???? Their point? Teaching tolerance for everyone is something you won't teach in your home? Teaching about the many different families and people in the world is a BAD thing?

If you don't like public school, you need to consider private or homeschooling. There are MANY theories and ideas taught in public schools that conservative Christians won't agree with. How about dinosaurs, eh? How about evolution? It's called public school because it's for the General PUBLIC. A Public that includes people of all races, religions, and sexual orientation.

Miss Emish | 11:17 AM

I am so uplifted by reading your posts. People need to wake up and realize that they are as bigoted as those who opposed interracial marriage.
Here is a section from a speech made in 1912 about an amendment banning interracial marriage. The rhetoric sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it?

... Intermarriage between whites and blacks is repulsive and averse to every sentiment of pure American spirit. It is abhorrent and repugnant to the very principles of Saxon government. It is subversive of social peace. It is destructive of moral supremacy ... Let us uproot and exterminate now this debasing, ultra-demoralizing, un-American and inhuman leprosy" (Congressional Record, 62d. Congr., 3d. Sess., December 11, 1912, pp. 502-503.)

This is not an issue people should be voting for, it is a basic human right. If people had been allowed to vote on Loving vs. Virginia or Brown vs. Board of education do you think those would have passed? A 1958 Gallup poll showed that 96 percent of white Americans disapproved of interracial marriage.

We should not be voting about this.

tricia | 11:36 AM

viewpoints aside(just for the record i voted no) the weirdest part for me is that it takes a 2/3's majority to pass a tax but only a simple majority to pass an amendment to the state constitution. am i the only one who thinks this is wrong?

Issas Crazy World | 11:38 AM

I think you did a great job in that post. I for one, fully agree with you. I'm angry that we keep having to deal with this. I think it should be legal to marry the one you love, in all fifty states.

In 1966 when my aunt married her black husband, it wasn't legal in her state. She fought it until it was. I can't imagine living in that time. I only hope that my kids will grow up in a world where their aunties will have always been married. Where they'll be shocked when we tell them, it once wasn't legal. My family will continue to fight this, until it is changed.

mommymae | 12:15 PM

i went to bed so happy last tuesday and woke up nauseous when my husband told me it passed. i'm sick for my friends who love each other and feel like second-class citizens. i'm mad as fucking hell that their children's future hangs in the balance of bigotry and ignorance.

Anonymous | 12:28 PM

I felt like I needed to comment on this. By most standards I am a conservative. That being said I am appaled at the fact that Prop 8 passed. I do not live in Calf. but if I did I would have voted no.

This is a personal choice. This is not a government issue. I am glad you chose to speak out on this issue and the video you posted speaks volumes.

Keep blogging from your heart. It touches a lot of people and even if they disagree with you it makes them think.

Cat | 1:27 PM

Never apologize for speaking your truth.

kittenpie | 1:50 PM

I actually don't think you overstepped on that post. There was no nasty names and so on. But then, I also totally understand why it angers you so - it does me, too. But why is no one noticing that two other states banned gay marriage, too? Only because in Cali it was removing something?

joy | 2:00 PM

"Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate would be oppression." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:318

Rock on. You expressed anger and indignance with passion. We shouldn't exist being open and accepting of all views - because some views are unreasonable and just flat out WRONG. I can't imagine a racial bigot, or a perpetrator of hate crimes who causes damage to someone's quality of life, deserving an apology for your expression of anger at his or her actions. This is not different. It doesn't matter what a "good person" you are, it doesn't matter that you're basing your decisions on your personal religious beliefs, it doesn't matter that you think it makes perfect sense to cling to a verse in the Bible while dismissing the very specific antiquated commands of all the verses around it (as well as the Biblical principle that GOD IS LOVE), it doesn't matter how kindly and quietly you live your live. It's wrong to treat people this way.

I hope one day everyone who voted yes will carry with them a sense of their part in history - the same role played by those who supported slavery, racism, oppression of women, genocide, and every other violation of the rights of human beings.

joy | 2:01 PM

"Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate would be oppression." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:318

Rock on. You expressed anger and indignance with passion. We shouldn't exist being open and accepting of all views - because some views are unreasonable and just flat out WRONG. I can't imagine a racial bigot, or a perpetrator of hate crimes who causes damage to someone's quality of life, deserving an apology for your expression of anger at his or her actions. This is not different. It doesn't matter what a "good person" you are, it doesn't matter that you're basing your decisions on your personal religious beliefs, it doesn't matter that you think it makes perfect sense to cling to a verse in the Bible while dismissing the very specific antiquated commands of all the verses around it (as well as the Biblical principle that GOD IS LOVE), it doesn't matter how kindly and quietly you live your live. It's wrong to treat people this way.

I hope one day everyone who voted yes will carry with them a sense of their part in history - the same role played by those who supported slavery, racism, oppression of women, genocide, and every other violation of the rights of human beings.

Daddy Geek Boy | 2:53 PM

I think I know where you are coming from. YES, we should be angry about this. BUT...if we approach the opposition with anger, we're going to get nothing but defensiveness back.

Passion is great and passion will help turn the tide. But passion does not have to be anger. We need to also be intelligent and reasonable. As much as we can.

I had a very interesting experience last week where I got into with with somebody on line. We fired off rants back and forth to each other until finally a truce was called. After that moment, when I was able to articulate without anger where I was coming from and why this issue meant so much to me, this person, this staunch religious conservative finally said that they understood my position and that it was really difficult to undo what they had been taught their whole lives.

While I realize that through emails I'm probably never going to get this person to fully agree with me, I took their admission that they understood my position on this as a small victory. It was certainly a turn around from their anger at the onset of our debates.

It's hard to argue against a person's religious beliefs. But if we can work to get people to a place where they can at least see and start to understand why the bans against same sex marriage are wrong, we stand a better chance of swaying the public opinion and changing the laws.

Yes, let's continue to fight the big loud fight with protests and blogs like yours, GGC, but let's also not forget that sometimes a softer approach can be effective as well

jjlibra | 3:04 PM

i can see going both ways (ha!) on this. there is the hey i'm angry and you are the one who made me angry so i'm going to spew all over you. but then there is the hey i'm angry and you are the one who made me angry but i will not sink to your level so i will just respectfully disagree. i loved that you were not pc in your first post. it was a gut reaction. it was so honest. that's who you are and why i like your blog. in my last comment i mentioned that i had a comment in mind after reading your post but after reading the comments thought about changing it. my original comment, which i went with, was about everyone connecting with you on some level. but after reading the comments i wanted to change it to something nasty. even though we are not really friends i felt like i wanted to stick up for you and give the finger to all the people who were leaving ugly comments. that is not even one tenth of the feeling you have for your friends who are being denied their rights. anyone who doesn't understand that natural protective instinct over loved ones probably doesn't understand much. they are sitting around thinking "man, why is that becca girl so upset? it's not like she's gay or anything." for them i have this:

They came for the Communists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't
a Communist;

They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Socialist;

They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a labor leader;

They came for the Jews, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Jew;

Then they came for me -
And there was no one left to object.

Martin Niemoller, German Protestant Pastor,

1892-1984

GIRL'S GONE CHILD | 3:05 PM

YES, Daddy Geek Boy. I want to frame what you wrote, here, because you ABSOLUTELY GET IT. I wasn't apologizing here at all -- not for what I feel/felt/am passionate about. I was merely articulating the epiphany I had thanks to others: fighting hate with hate does nothing but perpetuate the situation. Telling someone they are wrong is no way to enlighten them.

"...BUT...if we approach the opposition with anger, we're going to get nothing but defensiveness back.

Passion is great and passion will help turn the tide. But passion does not have to be anger. We need to also be intelligent and reasonable. As much as we can. "

The most successful activists are not the ones who burned buildings or threw slander at their fellow people but the ones who shook hands with those on the other side in hope they might pull their hearts the right way.

Thank you.

cocosmalls | 4:31 PM

mama you know i am with you 100% (literally since i am meeting you on saturday with jack and pen) but i disagree on the idea anger does not work.

the civil rights movements leaders might have been kind in public but the bodies who filled the streets, they were angry-angry at injustic and the people who thought injustic was ok becasue it benefited them.

No one gave up power because it was the warm and fuzzy thing to do-they do it because the ramifications of not are too great.

chantalart | 7:33 PM

It's a civil rights issue. I just want you to know I was in no way offended- good for you for standing up for your friends. I feel the same way you do!

Francesca Fine Jewelry | 11:15 PM

"Now see, I'm not sure what conclusion you COULD draw from their position. I'm sorry, but sometimes wrong is wrong, and the argument doesn't deserve civility, but outrage.
"For whatever reason" doesn't work with racism or sexism or genocide or violence against women or oppression against the poor. So why would you think it has a place here?"

I disagree with the above. You and others are asking people to go against what they believe in their hearts to be sin. Do you think that's right? People need to respect other people's faiths, even if they don't agree with those belief systems.

Who is anyone to tell people to go against what they believe their God wants? That is also intolerance and it is what outrages me. I have no right to demand that the Jews start eating food that isn't kosher, I have no right to tell a Muslim woman to uncover her head, and I have no right to tell someone to vote for what they think is a sin. I may not agree with what others do in the name of their different faiths, but I have absolutely no right at all to tell them to go against their faith. And no one else has the right to do that either.

For the record, I'm an Independent, I voted for Obama, and I am a Christian. I don't hate gays. I love them.
Jean

Gaby | 7:51 AM

Well, Jean (and other supporters), don't you understand that you are contradicting yourself when you say "I have no right to demand that the Jews start eating food that isn't kosher", etc?
If this is your philosophy, then it should be clear to you that you have no right to tell a couple that they cannot get married. As I see marriage, it is also a belief, and if two people are committed enough that they want to get married, then how could you forbid them to do so?

Love and peace,
Gaby

Sta | 8:20 AM

Just want to chime in as a Christian who would have voted No on Prop 8. After starting to follow Jesus three years ago, I have still not come to understand the church's position on homosexuality. I believe that Jesus had a problem with rampant sexual immorality of ALL kinds (any sex outside of marriage, basically). I do not believe he had a problem with people loving one another.

In any case, I just want to make it clear that not all Christians are anti-gay. I believe people are born gay, and that God loves them as they are. And I believe God calls us to LOVE PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE. He also calls us to let him do the judging.

All of that, to me, adds up to valid reasons Christians should not support Prop 8. It is clearly unloving. It is not loving people where they are. It is casting judgment when that's not our job. If you do believe it is a sin, so be it. Let people get married and let God deal with them. We're all sinners.

I am dismayed that there is so much hate in this conversation (nationally, I mean), coming from BOTH sides. I kind of understand why, but I don't like to see people justifying hatred. Well, let me clarify that -- God clearly hated certain things -- sin, betrayal, etc. He NEVER hated people. Hate someone's stance on something, OK. But I think once we start hating EACH OTHER, for any reason, we're only making things worse.

Anonymous | 9:22 AM

I am SO thrilled to see everyone so fired up about "equal rights" for any configuration of marriage! Next I'm going to jump on the bandwagon for marriage between one woman and several men! Soon I will be able to quit my job and be totally pampered and cared for! Hey, they say variety is the spice of life--WOOHOO! And remember, if it's OK between my husbands and I, it doesn't hurt YOU, so hands off! So when you see this measure on the ballot, PLEASE SUPPORT IT or I'll call you a hater and narrow-minded! Thanks for your time.

Backpacking Dad | 9:37 AM

@anonymous

Do you know what a slippery slope fallacy is?

Silly question.

Also, it's not "equal rights for any configuration of marriage" (which is a nonsense phrase: how do rights inhere in a configuration?), but equal rights for the human beings entering into those arrangements. Yes, we are all fired up about equal rights for human beings. You should be too.

But if the best argument for eliminating a right for same-sex couples to marry is that it opens the door for polygamous sets to also marry, well, that's hardly an argument at all. You'd have to show that polygamous families living openly and protected by the law are somehow dangerous to the fabric of society. Good luck.

Amie | 9:54 AM

Every American deserves the same legal rights, period. This isn't even a gay/straight issue--it's a civil rights issue. What if someone decided that the Mormons should no longer have the same rights as everyone else to worship in the religion that they wish? When someone messes with one group's legal rights under the law, they best be careful that it doesn't turn back on them.

Francesca Fine Jewelry | 12:17 PM

"Well, Jean (and other supporters), don't you understand that you are contradicting yourself when you say "I have no right to demand that the Jews start eating food that isn't kosher", etc?
If this is your philosophy, then it should be clear to you that you have no right to tell a couple that they cannot get married. As I see marriage, it is also a belief, and if two people are committed enough that they want to get married, then how could you forbid them to do so?"

See, this is what bothers me. Not only is there an assumption out there that people who voted one way are hate filled, but there is also an assumption that all Christians feel the same way. I never posted my personal feelings regarding Prop 8. But you assumed that I am a supporter. The only thing I am saying is that no one has the right to tell another person to go against what they feel in their hearts to be sin. This is more than a civil matter. I'm sorry, but it just is. To some people, this is what they feel their God who they worship says is wrong. It is not my place, your place, or anyone else's place to tell anyone to go against their God.

As for how I personally feel about gay marriage, it would take up a book. I will say that in the past couple of months, with more studying of Leviticus among other things, that I have changed my views from what I previously believed.

Francesca Fine Jewelry | 12:25 PM

"sta," I just wanted to tell you that you are my new bff. lol Great comment.

feministhousewife | 4:27 PM

Francesca - "I have no right to demand that the Jews start eating food that isn't kosher, I have no right to tell a Muslim woman to uncover her head, and I have no right to tell someone to vote for what they think is a sin."

Your arguement does not work in this instance. Even in places where same-sex marriage is legal, NO RELIGION IS OBLIGATED to officiate those marriages. This fight is about LEGAL marriage - as in the sheet of paper from your city clerk - and has nothing to do with ceremonies performed within religious institutions.

Yes, people of faith have every right to believe what they believe, but that does not give them the right to take away legal rights from their fellow citizens.

We need to remember that in the "land of the free," freedom from religious persecution works both ways. Being persecuted for being a person of faith is just the same as being persecuted BY a person of faith because you don't share their views.

Oh, and Rebecca - thanks so much for speaking out on behalf of your loved ones. Allies like you will make all the difference in our fight for equality.

Francesca Fine Jewelry | 8:16 PM

"Your arguement does not work in this instance."

It sure does. Doesn't matter who is officiating or where the marriage is taking place. That's not the issue. Many Christians believe that the sin is explained in Leviticus which states that man cannot lay down with man. You may not agree with that. After much studying, I no longer think that Christians are bound by that law. With that said, it is very disrespectful and shows a great deal of intolerance for others to get mad and say hurtful things to people who simply voted against what they believe is a sin. Because in essence people are saying "Who the heck cares that you think the homosexual act is a sin? Just go against what you believe and vote my way or I will be mad." I'm sorry, but that is very disrespectful.

ALEXA YOUNG | 10:42 PM

Dude, you are so amazing! I wish I could marry you. If only we didn't live in California. Sigh. XO

Misha | 7:59 AM

What I appreciate about your blog is that you are unapologetically YOU. This is the best modeling for any person, whether they be a mom/dad/kid/glbtqu! Down with H8! As a teen commentator said on NPR recently--sure, the country got 1 out of 2, but in school 50% is still flunking.

Sarah | 9:38 AM

The reaction I had to your last post was: cool.

The reaction I had to this post was: fury.

Look, I am not a half-assed voter. I download the PDFs and purchase the books and visit local campaigns and watch speeches. I want to know everything I can about every candidate and proposition I’m voting on – from who will be the chairman of my local public school district to the person who put that proposition on the ballot. I’m a fairly intelligent person who tries to make the most reasonable and best educated voting decisions I can. And I do not vote for myself. I vote for my husband, for my siblings, for my parents, for my cousins and my neighbors and my friends, for my future children and my future grandchildren. And for you. I go into that polling booth trying to make the best choice I can, the choice that I feel is best FOR MY COUNTRY and for her people.

I could care less if you pack up your children and head off to a rally. If you believe in something, you SHOULD pass that on to your children, you SHOULD show them that activity in politics is better than passivity, you SHOULD raise your voice and make some noise. And if your belief doesn’t jive with my own, then SO WHAT? Difference makes the world go round. You could have gone to a rally in support of or in opposition to homosexual marriage (or any other social agenda) and I would have supported you for standing up for what you believe in, for fighting for what you want in your world. I would have supported you in that quest until the cows came home.

But what I will not support, what I have never supported, and what I never will support, is the notion that the people who disagree with you have an opinion that is somehow less valid than your own opinion. If a person voted for proposition 8 because they are religious conservatives who believe that homosexuality is a sin? Who are any of us to say their opinion is wrong? Who are we to say they have misinterpreted the Bible or misinterpreted the laws of the land? Who are we to say that they are intolerant? If a person voted for proposition 8 because homosexuality makes them uncomfortable? Who are we to say they are ignorant? Who are we to say they should feel like complete and utter shit? If someone voted against proposition 8 for any reason – any reason at all – who are we to respond to their vote with anger?

Is it not more important that the people of this country speak their minds, exercise their right to vote, make their democracy work for them…than that they agree with everything you think? I believe it is. Have your opinions, Bec. Have any opinion under the sun and I, along with many many Americans will support you. But respect other peoples’ opinions too. They have a right to their own perspective and to voice that perspective, just as you do.

I voted against proposition 8. Although I have homosexual friends who voted for it, who believed that gay marriage should be EARNED from their peers instead of given by a court, I voted against it. I feel that some of the most important civil liberties have often been given by a court and that there is nothing shameful in that. I voted against proposition 8 because I thought it was irrational to amend the state Constitution and I voted against proposition 8 because I don’t believe in taking the right to marry away from any community who wishes to do so. I simply do not believe that the government should tell you who you can and cannot marry.

That said, I also think that the people of California have spoken and this is the beauty of democracy, they have spoken and the government follows suit. (Of course, if the tides turn, that is also the beauty of democracy, of the people speaking and the government following). I disagree with them, but I respect that they voted and I respect their opinions. Those people who disagreed with you and me are just as reasonable and just as worthy of respect as we are. Their choice may not be rooted in intolerance, they may simply have a differing opinion and that is the end of it. Sometimes there is no wrong or right, sometimes people make the best choice they can (for themselves or for a larger community) and well, they aren’t all the same choices, but that’s just fine. What really matters is that they thought it over and made what they felt was the best choice and we cannot fault them for that until we are them, until we understand every experience and education that went into making that choice. So we disagree, are their opinions really less valid than ours? Especially if they’re the majority? In a democracy, don’t you have to take the good with the bad?

Seriously, go on and protest until you’re blue in the face, but remember this: some people that you know and some people that I know voted against homosexual marriage. And there is nothing wrong with that, it’s just different. Their votes may not have been rooted in intolerance, may not have been “wrong,” may have been what they honestly and reasonably felt was the best and most representative choice. (After all, I know homosexuals who voted against homosexual marriage because they felt it was a reasonable choice and that their opinion was just as valid as the next guy’s). Just as there is no shame in what you believe, there is no shame in what they believe either.

This was a very long comment. I’m sorry about that, but I’ll get off my soapbox now and leave this webpage alone. I am only trying to say that what made me angry about this post was what I felt was a complete disregard for the validity of others’ opinions. I understand if that’s the way you feel, and that’s fine, but I think that what matters more than the actual opinions is respecting that other opinions are valid too. Not everyone sees the world as you do and that’s okay.

feministhousewife | 9:58 AM

Francesa -
"Who the heck cares that you think the homosexual act is a sin? Just go against what you believe and vote my way or I will be mad."

I personally did not say that at all.

I believe that is wrong for the majority to get to vote on the rights of the minority.

If minority rights were always decided by a popular vote, those of us in the minority would never have any rights at all.

Sarah | 12:07 PM

^ I think FHW has a point. When I voted, I did wonder if I even had a place speaking for a community I'm not a part of.

Francesca Fine Jewelry | 9:10 AM

Francesa -
"Who the heck cares that you think the homosexual act is a sin? Just go against what you believe and vote my way or I will be mad."

I personally did not say that at all.
-------------
I didn't say you did. You didn't paste the sentence before that which was "in essence people are saying..."
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I believe that is wrong for the majority to get to vote on the rights of the minority.
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Well we can agree on that. I am in CT. Gay marriage is legal here. We did not vote. If anyone is to blame, it is the CA government for weaseling out of making a decision and passing the ball to the people.

Mirinda | 7:00 AM

Sarah...do you have a blog? Cause I would read anything you write. Ha!

"I am only trying to say that what made me angry about this post was what I felt was a complete disregard for the validity of others’ opinions. I understand if that’s the way you feel, and that’s fine, but I think that what matters more than the actual opinions is respecting that other opinions are valid too. Not everyone sees the world as you do and that’s okay."

Amen sister! You said it perfectly. Thank you!